An online debator, and devout Orthodox Christian apparently, who used the handle “Southerndem”, wanted to prove that the Orthodox denomination was of sounder merit than that of the Protestant, and had issued a challenge for any protestant to take up. I’m not sure that I could even be called Protestant in my beliefs, and I much prefer to discuss the holy scriptures from a purely exegetical standpoint rather than bringing the issue of denomination into a clashing perspective; but since the challenge had been put forth, I thought it good to join in what I hoped could turn out to be a very constructive discussion.

Southerndem began the debate, and it proceeded like this:

Why do protestants challenge the divine influence of the Holy Spirit on Saints, and deny their place as interventionalists in heaven?

Would you mind defining the following first:

1) Saints

2) Holy Spirit

3) intervention

4) interventionalists

5) Heaven

Just a brief explanation of each will do, and then I will explain to you how I define each term. Then we can find some common ground on all of them.

I just want to make sure that we are on the same page context-wise before we begin debating. It will prevent a lot of equivocation on both of our parts.

Very Well…

1. Someone who has been graced more so than the rest of us by the Holy Spirit to do God’s bidding without directly chosing to do so himself. The task in question performed by said saint is of a divine level, a miricle, granting that person some place special within the Christian Faith as they were acting as an “extension” of God.

2. The Holy Spirit , I feel, is the most complicated of the three major “parts” of the Christian God. Jesus was the manifestation of God on earth, God is….well….God and the Holy spirit is kind of “God’s Agent” I hate to say that because it seems to split it away from being God, but its the best term I could think of….in otherwords, its God manifestation to influence man, or mans mind…..Kind of weird but let me know if you get what Im getting at

3. Intervention is not so much the Saints directly changing Gods will, more os the Saints we ask for guidance from and, being influenced by the holy spirit, we believe them to be an important part of what the Lord is doing…..hmmm lemme define that better later, this is just to give you an idea

4. A saint is someone who has been graced more so than the rest of us by the Holy Spirit to do God’s bidding without directly choosing to do so himself. The task in question performed by said saint is of a divine level, a miricle, granting that person some place special within the Christian Faith as they were acting as an "extension" of God.

5. The place where we are graced by Gods direct presence, absent of Sin and welcomed into everlasting life with the rest of the souls who are so lucky to reach it.

Great. One other thing I would like you to define, if you don’t mind:

6. Divine influence

To answer your initial question, I think it’s necessary that you and I discuss the meaning of each of these terms. I appreciate you giving me your definitions. I have my own definitions of each, as I’m sure that you are aware, and as I’m also sure that you’re aware, my definition for each term differs in varying degrees from every one of yours. I could give you my definitions of each, but my opinion really doesn’t matter much at all. Rather than doing so, and for the sake of expediency, perhaps we could reference the book which we both no doubt count to be the final authority, and find out how it defines each term. No doubt we will both have differing interpretations of this book, but perhaps we can also hash that out as well.

So, to begin…saint. Are you educated as to this term’s origins? That is, from what greek term it was derived, how this greek term was used in the culture of that time prior to the death of Christ, in what context the 1st century church began to use it, most especially in the writings of St. Paul. And then finally, are you aware of how it was used throughout the centuries up to the present day?

I am aware from which the word incipiently comes from, however could you more clearly define what you mean by "being used in the culture"?

Sure.

The term “saint” comes from the greek term hagios, which in its common usage meant “one who is set apart”. Prior to St. Paul’s usage, the term was used by pagans in reference to their temple prostitutes. What would happen with these prostitutes is that men would go with them into an upper room in the temple, and have intercourse with them; in doing so, they believed that they were communing with the God that they worshipped.

It was used in this context until St. Paul came along. He began to use the term hagios to refer to the people of God. Paul was infamous for taking words that many “holy” people of that day, especially Jewish priests, disapproved of, and using them for the good of the church. I tend to believe that he chose the term hagios to refer to Christians, in order to demonstrate that they were indeed set apart by God, but like the temple prostitute, they were utterly filthy with sin and wickedness prior to being washed by the blood of Christ (I could talk for pages about why Paul so brilliantly chose to use this rather offensive pagan term, but I’ll hesitate. Just think of Mary Magdalene, and the other prostitutes that Jesus extended grace to in the face of the self-righteous teachers of the law). There are many times in the New Testament when the term hagios, translated saint, is used, and not just by Paul. It is more often times then not clear that the term is used to refer to all of those who are in Christ.

Acts 9:13
“Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem.

Acts 9:32
As Peter traveled about the country, he went to visit the saints in Lydda.

Acts 26:10
And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the saints in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.

Romans 8:27
And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.

Romans 15:25-26
Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the saints there. For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.

2 Corinthians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God in Corinth, together with all the saints throughout Achaia

Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints in Ephesus

Philippians 4:22
All the saints send you greetings, especially those who belong to Caesar’s household.

Over the centuries, a few things happened that caused this issue to become confused. Varying interpretations of the words of the apostles arose throughout the Christian community, causing various sects to arise, and the one true faith became blurred in the eyes of most men. Some Christians began to practice various aspects of Judaism, while other “Christians” even denied the diety of Christ…these are just examples of some of the events that occurred which began to cause division. Finally, during times of great persecution, some Christians would give in to their persecutors, and deny the One True God.

So what’s the point? The point is that brothers and sisters in Christ began to question who was really a saint and who wasn’t…that is to say, they wondered who was really a child of God, and who wasn’t. No one really said “you’re not a saint” very often, but the issue became muddled. In the end, it was only those extremely devout individuals, especially martyrs, who would be called saints by all Christians alike.

So slowly but surely, over hundreds of years, the term “saint” went from a term which referred to all Christians, to a term that referred to only the most devout Christians. But the bottom line is, when the apostolic fathers used the term “saint” or hagios, all they meant was “people who have been set apart unto God”, and to them, that was everyone who embraced the gospel.

The definition that you have given for saint is this:

Someone who has been graced more so than the rest of us by the Holy Spirit to do God’s bidding without directly choosing to do so himself. The task in question performed by said saint is of a divine level, a miricle, granting that person some place special within the Christian Faith as they were acting as an "extension" of God.

The only thing that is necessary to make this definition of saint line up with the Bible’s definition of saint, is to cut a few lines out, so that it reads as follows:

Someone who has been graced by the Holy Spirit to do God’s bidding without directly choosing to do so himself. The task in question performed by said saint is of a divine level, a miracle, granting that person some place special within the Christian Faith as they were acting as an "extension" of God.

We’ve all been called, and we’ve all been graced, by God to perform special tasks, even miraculous tasks (we’ve all been called to witness the gospel, which saves souls; and no devout catholic would argue that this is the greatest miracle of all). And if we serve faithfully, we will be rewarded in a way that could certainly be called “special”, i.e. different from those who did not serve faithfully. But we’re all saints, that is to say that we have all been set apart as special unto God, which is really all that the word means, and that’s all that the apostles meant by it.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that all people are saints; I’m saying that all Christians are. You are set apart to be holy, and I am too. All we Christians have a purpose in Christ’s body. No purpose is more important than the other (Paul makes this clear in his speech about the body of Christ), it’s just that some of us fail to fulfill the task that God has called us to do in His body. It doesn’t make us not a saint; it just makes us an unfaithful one.

Does this make sense?

Yes, it does, sorry Ive been so long in responding, its AP testing week and Finals are closing in… I will respond in a max of 2 days with a more formal response…

(Nothing further was posted…)